Something disturbing: We are still at war with Germany ?

Hi Joop,

I don't think Admiral von Dönitz was needed to sign the instrument of surrender. It was signed on May 7, 1945, at Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower's headquarters in Rheims by Gen. Alfred Jodl, Chief of Staff of the German Army. At the same time, he signed three other surrender documents, one each for Great Britain, Russia, and France.

Historian Mark Felton makes some fascinating documentaries on under reported facets of WWII including interesting pieces on materiel, that might interest some here. But the short documentary above covers the question of succession and surrender well.

Thanks Charles. This sums up everything very nicely.

Gentlemen all,  this evening you have warmed the heart of an old history teacher, retired now for over twenty years.  It's a good question and your added information, good answers and comments, and open minds show that you are students of history still.  Well done, sirs.  I applaud you and am honored to be a part of the forum that you attend.   David Holcombe

Not quite right, I am afraid....

From below writings from National WW2 Museum.org Admiral Dönitz was still the sole person who was addressed to by Eisenhower.

So the allies knew he was (or had been) a mighty person, they just did not accept him.

So I would say, are your history books still right, David ?

Quote:

When Dönitz learned of Eisenhower’s insistence on a simultaneous German surrender on all fronts without the destruction of ships or airplanes, the German leader regarded it as unacceptable. From Dönitz’s headquarters in the town of Flensburg on the Danish border, he instructed his lieutenants to cable Eisenhower that a complete capitulation was impossible but a capitulation in the west would be immediately accepted. Eisenhower held steadfast in his resolve and threatened to resume bombing raids and close borders to those fleeing from the east if Dönitz did not sign a surrender on May 7. Only when Dönitz was faced with this threat of consigning all German soldiers outside American lines to Soviet captivity did he finally agree to surrender. The fact that the capitulation would not go into effect until midnight on May 8 was a small consolation that gave German soldiers 48 hours to flee to American lines. Dönitz authorized General Alfred Jodl to sign the document of surrender, which the latter did at 2:41 AM on May 7 at Reims in occupied France. Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin then insisted on another signing ceremony in Berlin which took place in the early morning hours of May 9.

Unquote.

And then there's this that shows that all's not right:

From Wikipedia:

Quote:

At the time World War II was declared over, there was no single German state that all occupying powers accepted as being the sole representative of the former Reich. The "war" technically did not finish until German reunification in 1990. However, in 1949 some technicalities were modified to soften the state of war between the U.S. and Germany. The state of war was retained since it provided the U.S. with a legal basis for keeping troops in Western Germany.^{[citation needed][6]} As a legal substitute for a peace treaty^[7] the U.S. formally ended the state of war between the U.S. and Germany on 19 October 1951 at 5:45 p.m. According to the U.S., a formal peace treaty had been stalled by the Soviet Union.^[7] It was not until the Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany was signed in 1990 that peace was formally established. The treaty came into effect on 15 March 1991.

Unquote.

Hi Joop,

A couple of issues.  

A state of war ends after a capitulation. This in 1918 was done by the Civil Authorities and the German Armed Forces capitulated as a result. This created a propaganda opportunity for Hitler.

In 1945 a different situation occured. By late April, no German State as such any longer existed. Admiral von Dönitz had been appointed by Hitler but Hitler did not at that time control much of what had been Germany. Admiral von Dönitz only controlled a small area near the Danish border. This time, the only significant German Force was the remnants of the armed forces. Gen. Alfred Jodl, Chief of Staff of the German Army was the only significant figure who could sign the articles of unconditional surrender. War ended May 7 to 9th after documents were signed.

Second point is that yes, recognition of a German state did not occur until much later. War was over but there was no Civil Authority in what had been Germany to formally deal with. Thus, no war but no official peace.Germany was partitioned and documents did recognize this partition. First was the Potsdam agreement of August, 1945 which set boundaries for partition. An Allied Central Council had supreme authority in Germany. The USA officially ended hostilities in December 1946. The Paris Peace Treaty of February 1947 was a treaty ending official hostilities with Italy, Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria. The Petersberg Agreement of November 1949 recognized West Germany (Federal Republic of Germany) and ended a state of war with that new sovereign state. Similar agreements were made with the German Democratic Republic by the Soviet Union. The Bonn-Paris Agreement of 1955 gave West Germany full sovereignty.

It was not until October 1990 with reunification that a final Treaty recognizing the new Germany was completed. Again, this process was slow because no Germany as it was constituted in 1940 existed, but that certainly did not mean that a state of war continued. That ended in May 1945.

Your quote:

When Dönitz learned of Eisenhower’s insistence on a simultaneous German surrender on all fronts without the destruction of ships or airplanes, the German leader regarded it as unacceptable. From Dönitz’s headquarters in the town of Flensburg on the Danish border, he instructed his lieutenants to cable Eisenhower that a complete capitulation was impossible but a capitulation in the west would be immediately accepted. Eisenhower held steadfast in his resolve and threatened to resume bombing raids and close borders to those fleeing from the east if Dönitz did not sign a surrender on May 7. Only when Dönitz was faced with this threat of consigning all German soldiers outside American lines to Soviet captivity did he finally agree to surrender. The fact that the capitulation would not go into effect until midnight on May 8 was a small consolation that gave German soldiers 48 hours to flee to American lines. Dönitz authorized General Alfred Jodl to sign the document of surrender, which the latter did at 2:41 AM on May 7 at Reims in occupied France. Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin then insisted on another signing ceremony in Berlin which took place in the early morning hours of May 9.

No problems with this other than too much importance given to Dönitz. See Charles' video for the explanation for this.

Second quote is OK but I would be cautious using 'Wiki' as I personally have written 'Wiki' articles and have changed some that I disagreed with. It is open to 'adjustments' to suit particular ideologies.

To summarize, I don't believe that War exists when a national army has unconditionally surrendered, which happened in the case of Nazi Germany.