Pointing out ‘small flaws’ should be accepted.

Posted by: @jkuvakas

@nickies, Thanks. You make my point quite well. I'm trying to moderate and suggest encouragement instead of harsh criticism, and you're blasting with a shotgun. Ease it down a bit, Nickies.

I agree with you John.  IMHO it is not the criticism that is damaging as much as the tone with which it is delivered.  A person can certainly critique any particular model and I think that we as collectors generally appreciate any pluses or minuses presented, as we often can miss seeing minor shortcomings at times.  Respectfulness when offering opinion, no matter how strong, is kinder and offers encouragement to manufacturers who are on the receiving end of commentary. As a hobbyist/collector I find that it also makes for a much more pleasant daily discussion environment.  Sales evidence derived from respectful group discussions such as ours on this forum will ultimately tell manufacturers what they need to know.

I think that the comments mention here are all good and allows diversity of opinion. If I’m not mistaken, this hobby of collecting vintage cars well over 50 years old allows us to reminisce about our youthful experience’s remembering these great cars of the past. I love seeing a replica that was built to give homage to those big and beautiful icons! I do a lot of research on the orginal brochures and oem factory colors and seasonal deviations by the auto makers. Remembering and seeing many many photos of the actual car on the internet or car shows  is very exciting and in what ever capacity the 1/43 or any scale maker can and tries to incorporate the factory details is still a marvel especially the tiny little scripts and emblems . Applying them, to me is daunting!

Some of you may know that I also modify and enhance white metal cars and always keep in mind being as accurate and authentic as possible. I take great pride and pleasure in doing this and sometimes being paid for my labor.

So for me, I love to see and own a replica that has as much of the authentic details of the period. I personally am not interested in seeing or buying something other than authentic. There is so much researchable information available to help the producer of these important little cars, that I personally don’t understand why they aren’t incorporated into a replica of this importance. Since many of us are totally addicted collectors, why not expect authenticity for the prices we are paying. I believe that the high end producers Conquest, MIC, WMCE, and even Brooklin (newer additions) have tried their best to be as true to the period as possible. I think the pink tractor example doesn’t do our hobby the service it deserves because I think most of us are expecting and looking for.

My intention is not to bash or disrespect any other opinions but just to voice my own.

Thanks for reading 

@chazy-r, this is exactly the type of tone I'm talking about. It is well stated, balanced, and can lead to some productive dialogue. It is an encouragement instead of a rant.

Thanks. John. Owning a piece of nostalgia is a real blessing and I hope bings joy to our souls!

Posted by: @chazy-r

There is so much researchable information available to help the producer of these important little cars, that I personally don’t understand why they aren’t incorporated into a replica of this importance.

Agreed!

Posted by: @jkuvakas

Your comments are well said and well received. Thank you. I see balance and wisdom in what you say. However, we should keep in mind a few things as we critique a model:

• The demand for absolute conformity to the brochure in color and trim can inadvertently slam a model for portraying a special order or seasonal offering of color or trim. I'm not saying, "Don't point it out." But I am saying we don't have to accuse the maker of being careless or lazy. A little grace and some small measure of humility can go a long way toward not muting the joy someone else may have in that model.   
• We hear a lot about the size of white walls and continental kits. I grew up in those times. Some cars had continental kits, and some had *gasp* skirts. When the narrow white walls began to show up, many owners exchanged them for wider white walls because they liked the older look better. The same thing happened when performance cars began showing up with raised white letter tires. For a few years, some owners insisted on replacing them with white walls. So, there were actual cars on the streets with all kinds of sidewalls. I understand that some folks only want to collect models that look just like the brochure. That's OK. We all have our own motivations for buying. But in the real world of the fifties and sixties, all bets were off on color, trim, tires, wheels, and accessories. Many dealers offered options on all those items, including unique two-tones and total repaints. They were profit centers. 
• If we're not careful to temper our comments, we can pull the rug out from another collector who has just proudly exhibited his new purchase. If I put up a new model and said, "I really like this new Bulgemobile. I've been looking for one for a long time." and someone comes back and says, "Those wheels are crappy. The maker should know better!" I would be hesitant to share my next purchase. 
• Finally, before we get too negative and insist that models be made our way, we should try to keep in mind that the maker has already purchased his inventory and now has to sell it to stay in business. So, pointing out a flaw can be helpful to him for future releases. But constantly going back to the same item and insisting that there is something wrong with the model can be harmful in the long run. This is exactly what helped to bring the near-demise of the 1/24 scale, self-proclaimed experts complaining about every little detail. Several 1/24 makers and a few 1/18 makers threw in the towel and just gave up. Very few people seemed happy with their products, and they had large unsold inventories on their shelves. 

Please don't misunderstand me. I a NOT saying, "Don't point out flaws." But I am saying let's not rob the maker or his customers of their joy...and try to be at least as encouraging as we are critical." "I'm glad Mr Model Maker came out with this model. I'm uncomfortable with the (white walls, antenna, bumper guards, color, cont kit, etc) and will probably not buy it." This is much more helpful to all than "I can't believe this guy is so blind that he can't see that those models didn't come with those thingys." 

I agree with every word of this! Feel free to voice your opinion, but doing so with courtesy and civility will encourage more interaction from the rest of us. It may feel good to bang out a rant on your keyboard, but think about this: how would you voice your opinion to someone if you were speaking to them in person, in their home, looking at one of the models they own? Would you rant to their face, or would you have a pleasant conversation about what could be better with that particular model? Responding online does not give you a cloak of invisibility; what you say and how you say it says much more about you than it says about the model. 

When I respond to a thread, I like to imagine that the original poster is hosting a backyard barbecue, and anyone responding to that thread are his guests. I always do my best to behave in a manner that will get me invited to the next barbecue, instead of the guy tossing beer bottles on the lawn because the hamburgers were not cooked to his liking. 

Before replying to a thread, ask yourself one thing: "Will my reply be even a little useful or interesting to others, or is it really just whining?". Whenever I see a reply like "I always hated that color" or something similar, I think "What are the rest of us supposed to do with that kind of information??". Is your reply going to add value to the discussion? If not, why say anything at all? 

You may FEEL invisible online, but the people reading your words will always react to your comments just as if you are speaking to them face to face. 

Let's all do our part to make "common courtesy" common again!

Posted by: @daveg

"Will my reply be even a little useful or interesting to others, or is it really just whining?". Whenever I see a reply like "I always hated that color"

I agree with John and you, no question. Certainly, voicing personal opinions about fins, colors, wheels, etc..  can clearly be taxing & not too terribly productive.  I occasionally take considerable heat for noting not so much unequivocal mistakes, such as spelling errors, oddly shaped body-tooling or upside-down emblems, but rather for "perceived obscure-errors."    That is, white-wall widths, specific "factory"  colors, rare trim, etc...

Almost always someone will combat me with "Man who..."  arguments.  For instance, there's overwhelming evidence that '64 Chevrolets did not leave the factory with "wide-whites."   But of course, "Oh yeah, I knew a man who had them on his car!"   Yes, probably true... but my gripe is why replicate that one (or 106 ) car that were exceptions (for whatever reason ) when over a million '64 Chevys left factories with either black-walls or "slim-band whitewalls?" 

I never say I hate any one or company for choosing to duplicate "obscurity,"  I just don't understand it.  Am I whining?  IDK, perhaps I am......   🙄 😯 🙄 

Considering the fairly hefty price of quality models these days I find the remarks, observations and criticisms brought forward by fellow collectors to be really helpful.  Many times I have missed a detail flaw or inaccuracy later noted on this forum pertaining to a model I was considering buying, which resulted in me reevaluating my decision on whether to purchase.  However as many members have rightly stated, it serves no purpose whatsoever to be anything other than respectful in delivering what you have to say when critiquing any model.  The readers are of course fully able to arrive at their considered opinion and make a purchase choice regardless of the tone of the critique, so for the sake of a pleasant forum environment and camaraderie, plus providing ongoing encouragement to model makers, IMHO it's best to be respectful and constructive.

Posted by: @chris

Posted by: @daveg

"Will my reply be even a little useful or interesting to others, or is it really just whining?". Whenever I see a reply like "I always hated that color"

I agree with John and you, no question. Certainly, voicing personal opinions about fins, colors, wheels, etc..  can clearly be taxing & not too terribly productive.  I occasionally take considerable heat for noting not so much unequivocal mistakes, such as spelling errors, oddly shaped body-tooling or upside-down emblems, but rather for "perceived obscure-errors."    That is, white-wall widths, specific "factory"  colors, rare trim, etc...

Almost always someone will combat me with "Man who..."  arguments.  For instance, there's overwhelming evidence that '64 Chevrolets did not leave the factory with "wide-whites."   But of course, "Oh yeah, I knew a man who had them on his car!"   Yes, probably true... but my gripe is why replicate that one (or 106 ) car that were exceptions (for whatever reason ) when over a million '64 Chevys left factories with either black-walls or "slim-band whitewalls?" 

I never say I hate any one or company for choosing to duplicate "obscurity,"  I just don't understand it.  Am I whining?  IDK, perhaps I am......   🙄 😯 🙄 

I definitely understand, and agree with, your preference for models to be factory-correct. Many models are not, for whatever reason, but I choose not to get wrapped around the axle over it (PLEASE understand that I am not pointing fingers at you or anyone else here, I am merely stating my own personal opinion on this topic). Do I buy (and enjoy) models that are not factory correct? Yes. Do I wish that they were factory correct? Yes. Do I lose sleep over it? No. Do I stand on a soapbox about it? No.

"Hobby" is defined as "an activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure". I derive pleasure from buying models that I like (factory correct or not), and not buying models that I don't like. It's a hobby. I enjoy the stuff I like, and don't dwell on the stuff that I don't care for. As Jimmy Buffett said, "Breathe in, breathe out, move on...".

As you may or may not be aware, Stamp Models is producing a 1970 Toronado for me, due out later this year. I asked them if I could share the development progress publicly on my Facebook page, and they agreed. I wanted to do this so people could provide feedback during development, when it will actually do some good. I also enlisted the help of two actual owners of 1970 Toros who are providing me and Stamp with photos, dimensions, documentation, and feedback about the accuracy of the model. This model will have two wheel options, a full deluxe wheel cover, and the base steel wheel with dog dish hubcap. I personally prefer the base wheel chromed with a chrome dog dish, but found out during research that this was not a factory option, just a popular owner mod. The factory wheels were painted silver with a brushed cap, so that is what I am specifying to Stamp. As much as I like the look of those wheels chromed, it is more important to me to have it factory-correct.

Thanks for your comments Dave and I very much look forward to buying one of your '70 Toronados.....when I figure out which wheel style I like best....lol.  In reality my choice will no doubt be based on color choice.

Posted by: @daveg

I asked them if I could share the development progress publicly on my Facebook page, and they agreed. I wanted to do this so people could provide feedback during development, when it will actually do some good. I also enlisted the help of two actual owners of 1970 Toros who are providing me and Stamp with photos, dimensions, documentation, and feedback about the accuracy of the model.

Impressive!   This is the quintessential ideal scenario for authentic, accurate, historically-correct scale replication. Period!  Well done sir, and good luck.    

I think one problem can be that some people live just to find "mistakes". Also, they like to boast : "I found 3 "mistakes" and _you_ only found 1. Therefore, I win !"

Judging a number of negative things online can be risky and quite unreliable. Do you use an un-calibated computer and monitor ? What conditions to you view under ? Do you use the Adobe color standard or another? Are you are judging using a unsorted, uncalibrated photograph ? How old is the image and has it color-shifted ? What are the exact dimensions being used ? Are you familiar with EVERY automobile of this kind that was ever built or is now in existence ? Etc, etc.

A new kid in the hobby may proudly show his inexpensive and perhaps more basic diecast of a current automobile he likes ..... and get roasted and dismissed by the "real" collectors who may reply to his post.

There is LOTS more that could be said, but the bottom line is that it is supposed to be an enjoyable hobby, and there should be a wide-range of tastes and budgets that are accommodated. Get what you like and like what you get and accept other polite collectors with other tastes.

One can always start their own diecast company and do just as they please. (and by the way, something(s) that was done to a certain photograph a while ago still hasn't been noticed by the "experts".)

Posted by: @chris

Posted by: @daveg

I asked them if I could share the development progress publicly on my Facebook page, and they agreed. I wanted to do this so people could provide feedback during development, when it will actually do some good. I also enlisted the help of two actual owners of 1970 Toros who are providing me and Stamp with photos, dimensions, documentation, and feedback about the accuracy of the model.

Impressive!   This is the quintessential ideal scenario for authentic, accurate, historically-correct scale replication. Period!  Well done sir, and good luck.    

Thank you! I am very hopeful that, as a team, we can vet any errors and omissions in the prototype stage! I am providing similar data for three additional future projects with Stamp that cannot be revealed yet. On one of these models, we are working with an individual that fully restored his 1:1 and then donated it to a museum. So we not only have the finished vehicle, but tons of documentation that he collected to prepare for the restoration, as well as complete documentation of the restoration itself! Geez...we had better not screw THAT one up! 🤣 🤣 🤣

Posted by: @mikedetorrice

I think one problem can be that some people live just to find "mistakes". Also, they like to boast : "I found 3 "mistakes" and _you_ only found 1. Therefore, I win !"

Judging a number of negative things online can be risky and quite unreliable. Do you use an un-calibated computer and monitor ? What conditions to you view under ? Do you use the Adobe color standard or another? Are you are judging using a unsorted, uncalibrated photograph ? How old is the image and has it color-shifted ? What are the exact dimensions being used ? Are you familiar with EVERY automobile of this kind that was ever built or is now in existence ? Etc, etc.

A new kid in the hobby may proudly show his inexpensive and perhaps more basic diecast of a current automobile he likes ..... and get roasted and dismissed by the "real" collectors who may reply to his post.

There is LOTS more that could be said, but the bottom line is that it is supposed to be an enjoyable hobby, and there should be a wide-range of tastes and budgets that are accommodated. Get what you like and like what you get and accept other polite collectors with other tastes.

One can always start their own diecast company and do just as they please. (and by the way, something(s) that was done to a certain photograph a while ago still hasn't been noticed by the "experts".)

 

 

Yup. This. ^^^

Posted by: @jack-dodds

Thanks for your comments Dave and I very much look forward to buying one of your '70 Toronados.....when I figure out which wheel style I like best....lol.  In reality my choice will no doubt be based on color choice.

Many thanks Jack! There will be four colors produced, and two will be exclusive to TOYCARGEEK; Ming Jade and Aegean Aqua Poly. Both of these will have the base wheels. The other two colors will be chosen by Stamp, and are TBD. I can't promise anything, but I am going to ask Stamp if I can buy some extra wheel/axle assemblies to offer as options. If I can talk them into it, you'll be able to pick your favorite color/wheel option!